The eBook revolution has been proceeding at warp speed towards the next inflection point, namely the 2010 Christmas shopping season when perhaps a dozen ebook readers will be out there competing with the Kindle, the Sony, and the Nook, which themselves have been moving towards Universal eBook Readers, thanks in large parts to all sorts of free download ebook reader programs, which will convert many formats into other formats, as long as you download files, some pirate files included, onto your computer, to files that are readable on various ebook readers.
Amazon has one that allows you to read Kindle’s mobi format on your PC. The Nook already will read pdf, Word, and rtf, though they’re not downloadable directly from Barnes and Noble, and you have to input from your computer using a USB connection. Ditto, more or less, the Sony eBook reader. There’s an ebook reader called the Kobo which will be out in time for the Christmas feeding frenzy that appears to be able to possibly download and read eBooks in multiple formats without passing them through your computer to make the match. And if it doesn’t, it’s a good guess that some other new eBook reader or readers shortly will.
And if you’re willing to do it through your computer, you can do it now. Open Office will do it, something called Calibre eBook Management will do it, Mobipocket Creator will convert a variety of formats into the Kindle’s mobi, and there a probably more that I haven’t found or even looked for, since these three do the job easily enough.
What this means to readers is that right now, with a little simple computer processing, they can purchase eBooks from any online retail outfit in any format and read them on a single eBook reader. And probably sooner than later, perhaps via 3G or 4G phone networks and or WiFi, you won’t have to do any converting yourself, your single eBook reader will be able to download and read everything from everywhere directly.
When it comes to business models, there is chaos. Major traditional publishers have grabbed control and a share of the take, sometimes even higher than 50%, and they are as often as not charging prices comparable to trade paperbacks, screwing readers and writers in roughly equal measure. To make it even more chaotic, there are what I would call “aggregaters,” adding a middleman to the chain connecting writers to retailers and dipping their own wicks accordingly.
Smashwords is one, Kobo is another, and there are others, some of them dubious operations. Here’s how it works:
A publisher uploads ebooks to an aggregater. For a piece of the publisher’s action, the aggregater converts the upload into several popular formats, and “publishes” them, which is to say acts more or less like a wholesale distributor, to retail outfits like Amazon and Barnes and Noble, among as many other online retail eBook bookstores as it can manage. Other publishers may sell directly on their own websites.
Interestingly enough, what with a profusion of retail outlets offering works in a number of formats to the point where even established publishers feel they may have to distribute to them through aggregaters, the retail outlets like Amazon and Barnes and Noble can’t demand exclusive sales rights to eBooks and so they don’t.
What this means to writers, more or less established writers at least, is that they are one step away from the catbird seat. Amazon has for some time allowed anyone to put anything that meets certain standards--format standards, not literary ones--on the Kindle store, and Barnes and Noble has just started doing it too. Ditto the aggregaters, the sleazier ones functioning in effect as electronic vanity publishers, and the really sleazy ones trying to sell you “services.”
I’ve been moving at warp speed too, along a very steep learning curve, with the help of people teaching me who have made suggestions via comments on NORMAN SPINRAD AT LARGE, my website, or email. Some of them comment under handles like “Anonymous” so I can’t thank them here because I don’t know who they are because they don’t want me or anyone else too either. One who put his name out there is Mike Cane, so a belated tip of my propeller beanie to you, Mike. A few others, and particular one, have given me an advance course in the technical end and are so secretive they don’t even want heir handles made public. So thanks to you too, at least you know who you are.
Some of them are probably “pirates,” though from what I’ve been learning and how I’ve been pondering it, I’m not so comfortable with the tag any more. “Pirating” of books began before there were even such things as ebooks or ebook readers. The “pirates” scanned actual books into files and put them on freebie websites. No money was charged for downloads, and the market for actual books wasn’t significantly harmed, because only dedicated geeks would want to read whole novels on computer screens or Palm Pilots and the like, and if you printed them out, by the time you figure in the cost of paper and ink, paperback editions cost less than the unwieldy manuscript that would be the end product.
In those days, the “pirates” really could only be idealists doing it to preserve books from oblivion as Gutenberg was doing for public domain titles, and while it was illegal, it was in effect a public service to the pirated writers. That’s the way they saw themselves, and that’s how they righteously defended themselves, and for those who have been around long enough, still do.
But the advent of ebooks and ebook readers at least potentially changes the game. True DRM software in theory prevents illegal copying in violation of copyright but there are copies in several formats to be had and experienced hackers can get around that and maybe even put on the Web programs that will allow anyone to do it. And once there is an unlocked copy, it can be duplicated ad infinitum.
And with ebook readers becoming commonplace now and sooner or later coming to dominate the book market, real harm can be done. There are people out there who strongly believe that copyright protection is wrong and feel morally obligated to act accordingly.
If you’re looking for a solution, I don’t have one now,but I can suggest a possible amelioration. Chasing these hackers to Vanuatu or Russia or Romania is futile because their only address is in cyberspace. Somehow writers and readers and “pirates” are going to have to come to some sort of unstated concordat. Maybe it’s already happening. Maybe it’s been happening for a while. I find it interesting that the only titles of mine that I’ve gotten from pirate sites thusfar have been books that were written either on a typewriter or dead word processing software, meaning that they had to be scanned. So if writers and “pirates” could meet each other halfway the problem might be at least mitigated.
“Pirates” would only produce their illegal copyright violating ebooks from books that have to be scanned, in return for which writers, writers’ organizations, and their lawyers would just let it be.
A key here is pricing and that’s what puts even moderately well-known writers and particularly those with “web presence” potentially in the catbird seat. So here’s my business model in incrimental steps. I became my own publisher for selected works.
First I put long out of print backlist titles on Amazon and Barnes and Noble at prices competative with what the non-existent mass market paperbacks would cost, no more than $8.
Then I published two original collections, one of previously uncollected stories, the other of critical essays-- “ebook original first editions” and priced them even lower.
I collect 70% of the sale price, meaning from $2.10 to $5.60 on every sale. Try to get that from publisher or aggregater!
Now I’m trying a quatum jump experiment. As far as I know, the first time that a writer of reputation has launched a self-published ebook original first American edition of a major novel.
The novel is MEXICA. The definitive story of Cortes’ conquest of Mexico. The novel was published in Spanish in Mexico where it’s been a best seller. There is a film adaptation in the works in English by El Uno productions in Los Angeles. The novel was written under contract to a British publisher and published in the British rights area, but it bounced all over New York, and I and my agent were unable to find an American publisher, the general rejections being on the grounds that American readers wouldn’t be interested in an historical novel about the key event in Mexican history, this in a country where there are at least 40 or 50 million Mexican-Americans fluent in English whose very culture and ethnic identity were the result.
Finally, in angry desperation, I allowed the Brits to export small numbers their edition to the US. And the novel is now completely out of print in English, including an ebook version done by the British publisher and reverted.
So now I’m offering a first American edition as an ebook on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and maybe, as warranted, elsewhere. I’m pricing it at $9, way below the purchase price of what was the disappeared British ebook.
And here are links to my retail book pages:
Amazon
Barnes and Noble
Maybe this is blue sky or a Hail Mary, maybe it will become an ebook best seller. For sure it is a cutting edge experiment. On the other hand, follow the numbers:
$6.30 for each copy sold. $6300 per 1000. 3000 would bring $18,900. 1000 hardcovers would bring $2500. 3000 hardcovers, a median sale these days, would bring $7500.
Not much to lose and mucho dinero to gain, compadres!
Not to mention that the conventional book rights are still mine to sell and should this experiment really work out well, publishers who rejected MEXICA the first time around would be lining up to make a deal if I was prepared not to be too greedy.
A long shot?
Maybe.
But if it works, the future of ebooks will indeed be now, and the power will be in the hands of the currently struggling community of writers.
end

Great info, thanks Mr. Spinrad for keeping as much of the game in the writer's hands as possible. It's always astounding to me how the non-creatives who make a living off of creatives try to throttle the cow they are milking.
ReplyDeleteKurt
Great! I've been curious about MEXICA for years and have never seen a copy. Ticmotraspasarhuililis!
ReplyDeleteThe role-playing game community has been playing in this pool for several years now, including current-technology zero risk hardcopy options that favour the author (true print-on-demand like Lulu) and may have a lot to offer you as far as advice goes. One huge thing that comes out of this is that the resources that publishers used to offer the author are still available, but now the editor, the cover artist, the layout artist, and even the publicist are genuinely employees or contractors to you, the author -- the primary.
ReplyDeleteThis is interesting to me because it strikes me that the publisher should always have been seen as a kind of aggregator of these services -- that is, an employee of the author -- and that somewhere the relationship got turned around. It is going to sting when they find out, but I hope they will restructure as services accordingly.
Feel free to contact me privately if you want to know more about what we know here -- which is about low volume success and everyone getting to be their boss in adult-to-adult (peer-to-peer?) business relationships.
Well of course, if everyone along the chain to retail, artists, copyeditors, publicists, etc. are employees of the writer, the writer has to front the money to pay them. The only thing that publishers can do is provide these services on their own nickle and better than the writer can, and pay advances too.
ReplyDeleteWhat I'm doing now is an experiment, to see how the numbers work out.
And by the way, I do encourage info here from anyone, none of this is private, far from it.
@mikecane, bless his curmudgeonly heart, directed me to "the Men in the Jungle," which I am saving for the weekend. I'm looking forward to "Mexaca," too.
ReplyDelete*hugs*
kitten
Question, if I may? How hard is it for an author to convince their publisher to give the author the rights to an ebook edition of a book? There are a great many out of print books that aren't available as ebooks. I wonder why more authors don't take the initiative and 'self-publish' via Amazon or B&N or etc. Which leads me to wonder how hard a publisher holds onto copyright (even if they aren't doing anything with it)?
ReplyDeleteComplicated. For a decade or so publishers insist on contract clauses that give them control of ebook rights--though they weren't called that at time. And these days, they try to claim that POD or ebook constitutes "in print" so they can hold onto it forever.
ReplyDeleteBut my policy as always been to revert titles that aren't in print, and/or have term contracts.
And two other things--first of all no writer should allow a publisher to copyright a book in its name, and insisting it be copyrighted in your name is almost never a deal breaker. Second, "copyright" does NOT mean contractual right. It's standard that the writer retains all rights not specifically granted the publisher in the contract.
Good Luck, Mr. Spinrad. As an e-publisher myself I truly do hope that the big dineros come your way as well as the offers from publishing companies.
ReplyDeleteeveryone-
ReplyDeletei'm the person who's been helping norman on this.
-bowerbird
***
norman-
i'm not really "secretive". you just misunderstood.
and furthermore, "bowerbird" is not my "handle"...
it's my pseudonym; you should know the difference,
especially since i explained this to you in an e-mail.
and i wish you woulda talked to me about this new
experiment before you just went and threw it up...
the first thing i would have told you is that the price
which you have selected -- $9 -- is quite ridiculous.
you will make _many_ more sales, and make _more_
money in the long run, and garner far more readers,
and engender a better relationship with those readers,
with a lower price. the best price these days is $2.99.
pay extremely close attention to me on this, norman.
you will make _more_ money with a lower price. really.
-bowerbird
p.s. also, comparing the price of an e-book to what
a publisher charged for the p-book is just dishonest,
and readers out there can see through it in a minute.
Hello Mr. Spinrad,
ReplyDeleteI recently purchased your book THE IRON DREAM, by the method of amazon's Kindle to the PC.
Perhaps you might be thinking of selling recent works OSAMA THE GUN, WELCOME TO YOUR DREAM TIME, and POLICE STATE. That would a difficult decision. Only advice I can come up with is that you might want to advertise, not just on your website. Good luck.
I can see the advantages of self publishing but under the present circumstances I do better going through a publisher (Double Dragon)which has multiple distribution outlets. My books are sold in numerous ebook stores at the same time and I've done pretty well so far and gained a lot of name recognition. For example, my latest novel Alien Enigma has been on the Amazon science fiction best seller list for the last two weeks and the print version hasn't even been released yet.
ReplyDeletebowerbird--yes, you were the anonymous helper I credited. And "handle" has many extended meanings, pseudonyn one of them. Trust me in this, after all I am the writer.
ReplyDeleteI am also something of an expert on the biz, not only in the blog, but having published an old-fashioned book on the subject, STAYIN' ALIVE.
And if you check on what is actually being charged for ebooks, $9 is cheap for a novel like MEXICA. $2.95 is for previously unpublished amateurs. If writers are going to survive economically, we can't go bargain basement, the point is to undercut the current business model. Charging more or less the price of a mass market paperback for major novel ebooks is quite sufficient to do this.
What I'm doing is, after all, an experiment, and more than that, an attempt to change the game if successful.
What is presently missing is a means of differentiating the books of proven professionals from wannabee self-publishing on the retail end. Thusfar using multimodal web pr is about all that I can figure out doing. If enough writers like me succeed, Amazon, B&N, etc. may end up doing the job for us on their sites in return for somewhat lower royalties.
POLICE STATE does not exist as a novel yet, and WELCOME TO YOUR DREAMTIME won't be published in France until next Spring, but I am thinking of doing OSAMA as an ebook. But this will depend, among other things, on the results of the MEXICA experiment.
And if the results seem good, other writers may be encouraged to do likewise. And if that happens, there will be a business model revolution.
The Mobipocket format dates back long (in ebook format years!) before Amazon purchased the company that developed the format. Mobi is a light-weight format; html is far more capable of nuanced formatting. I purchased a number of mobi-formatted ebooks starting around 2002, and read them on various incarnations of the Palm Pilot.
ReplyDeleteAmazon sells ebooks in a second format that seems to be based on a rather sloppy in-house scan, and only Amazon creates reader software for it. Ick! The ePub format that other resellers use is standardized and can be read on many devices. The format is basically DRM'd html inside of a zip file. The DRM is optional.
As far as I know, every common DRM scheme has been cracked except for an obsolete Sony format. Decrypting an ebook is an act of liberation so that the ebook can be read on any device that supports the ePub format. The intrinsic html files can be reformatted for use on yet-to-be-invented readers.
By the way, I purchased the Mexica ebook a while back. I think I first read about it on your website. It is sad to say, but Spinrad books were hard to come by. I have many times schlepped to UCLA to find copies of your books and other back-listed titles.
Today I bought a stick of glue for three dollars. I expect to spend more for something that has love put into it.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, the 'cheap impulse buy' model for selling mass produced art has been proven wrong by the itunes misadventure, that's why for books Apple supports the higher pricing.
At the same time the only reason to price an ebook like a trade paperback or hardback is if you are coming out with a hardback at the same time and don't want to cannibalize sales. Then when the paper copies sell out, there's the ebook at a steep discount - and a POD copy for sale at a premium.
I could see pricing one at less then five bucks if it's a promotional thing, like an older book in a series when a new one's just come out, but at that point you might as well give it away free for a while like the big publishers seem to have had some success with - at least they keep doing it, so they must feel there's good reason for it.
I would never price an ebook at the price of a hardcover, and in fact not even the price of a trade paperback, which is usually about $15 or so. $9 is my max, and Amazon tried to enforce $9.95. $8 these days is about the average price for an averaged size mass market paperback. If there was (or will be)a US mass market paperback of MEXICA, its length would probably mandate $9.
ReplyDeleteIf I was running a major publishing house, I would not allow an ebook versin until at least 6 months after the hardcover, maybe a year, and bring out the trade paperback at about the same time. Mass market paperback is already dying out, and that is what ebooks should be replacing and sooner or later will.
This business model protects hardcover sales and indie bookstores, while making ebooks significantly cheaper than trade paperbacks, but not so much cheaper as to kill their sales.
I think sooner or later this has to happen because nothing else makes much business sense.
norman said:
ReplyDelete> bowerbird--yes, you were the anonymous helper I credited.
> And "handle" has many extended meanings, pseudonyn one of them.
> Trust me in this, after all I am the writer.
i'm a writer too, norman. and i have a lot of experience with cyberspace.
"handle" is a loaded word, one which you should not use to describe me.
the accurate term -- one that is not overloaded -- is pseudonym. use it.
(and up above, where you called me "anonymous", is yet another mistake.)
> I am also something of an expert on the biz, not only in the blog, but
> having published an old-fashioned book on the subject, STAYIN' ALIVE.
you might consider yourself an expert. but you've got your facts wrong.
if you cut down your price from $9 to $6, you'll sell twice as many books.
if you raise it back up again after that, your sales will fall to half as much.
if you cut it again, they will go back up to twice as much. like clockwork.
and if you then cut down your price from $6 to $3, your sales will triple...
raise it back to $6, and they'll fall. lower it again to $3, and they'll go up.
you don't have to trust me. i know i'm right, because lots of people have
done these experiments, and their findings are consistent, remarkably so.
but you don't have to trust me. run the experiments yourself. you'll see.
indeed, it would even result in greater sales to go below the $2.99 price.
the problem is that then amazon will only give you 35%, instead of 70%,
and the increase in the number of sales won't offset the lower percentage.
so, for the time being anyway, we're stuck with $2.99 as the "best" price.
also, at the $2.99 pricepoint, where you are getting your maximal sales,
that might trigger your appearance on the kindle bestseller lists, which
will then lead to even more sales. also, as we would certainly suspect,
making more sales due to the lower price means more word-of-mouth,
and we all know how important that factor is.
moreover, a lower price means your fans can buy your _other_ books too,
and that will then help your other books make the kindle bestseller lists.
it also means more suggestions from the amazon recommendation engine,
where customers are told that "people who bought this book also bought..."
> And if you check on what is actually being charged for ebooks,
> $9 is cheap for a novel like MEXICA.
yes, you can find lots of books priced at $9. but they aren't selling.
not in the numbers that are being set by the lower-priced books...
those expensive e-books are being perpetrated by corporate publishers,
who want to slow e-book adoption, to preserve their business models...
so you're emulating the wrong sector.
> $2.95 is for previously unpublished amateurs.
you're letting your pride get in the way of good business sense.
maximize your profit. that's the best course for you to follow...
(continued...)
ReplyDelete> If writers are going to survive economically,
> we can't go bargain basement,
do the experiments, norman, and you will quickly learn that
you will make _more_ money with lower prices. _more_money_.
or don't do the experiments, and don't learn. it's up to you...
the only reason i am even bothering to explain all of this to you
is because i've volunteered a lot of work for you, cleaning one of
your books, and giving you instructions on how to do e-books...
given this investment in you of my time and energy and expertise,
i'd like to see you succeed, norman. but if you take a stupid route,
you're going to fail. or at least not succeed to the extent you could.
> What I'm doing is, after all, an experiment, and more than that,
> an attempt to change the game if successful.
you're not gonna change any game by charging $9 for an e-book.
you'll just languish on the bestseller lists, if you make them at all.
> What is presently missing is a means of differentiating the books of
> proven professionals from wannabee self-publishing on the retail end.
you're letting your stamp from the old gatekeepers cloud your vision.
and besides that, you seem to be forgetting that those old gatekeepers
decided to _pass_ on this book, the one you turned into a $9 e-book...
> But this will depend, among other things,
> on the results of the MEXICA experiment.
like i said, i wouldn't even be bothering to explain these things to you here
if i hadn't already made an investment in your success, because i'm tired of
explaining this to people who won't believe it because they don't _want_ to.
you will _fail_, because you're charging too much, so you'll decide that
"this e-book thing isn't going to work", and you'll pack in your efforts.
fine. meanwhile, the authors who are younger and smarter and faster
will be selling more books than you, making more money than you,
charting their books at higher positions on the bestseller lists than you,
and having a good time enjoying the success that they will be attaining.
and they'll be saying "this e-book thing is the best thing ever for writers".
> And if the results seem good, other writers may be
> encouraged to do likewise. And if that happens,
> there will be a business model revolution.
that's already happening, norman. but you are missing the boat...
i am your wake-up call. so wake up, norman. or be left behind...
-bowerbird
All I can say to this is that I've got ebooks out there in a range of prices, though certainly not lower than $3, so this is not a one book experiment, but nuanced to see what the results are.
ReplyDeleteI would have to sell 3 times as many MEXICA at $2.99 to make the same amount at $9.
Languish on the best-seller lists? This would be bad? Well, I suppose it might be if one was charging $2.99. But at $9 even less than $4000 sales would net $20,000 or so. And a best seller...
The point here is that things being what they are, you can give the reader a bargain without screwing yourself.
Oh, by the way, I just some other numbers--ebooks are 8% of the total book sales in the US. I do believe this will change over time,or I wouldn't be doing what I am, but the revolution certainly has not yet happened.
ReplyDeletenorman said:
ReplyDelete> I would have to sell 3 times as many MEXICA at $2.99
> to make the same amount at $9.
pay closer attention. you will sell _6_ times as many...
or it could be 10 times as many, or 20 times as many.
(it's hard to say exactly, because amazon is selling
lots more kindles and kindle e-books all the time,
so most of the numbers are trending up these days.)
> Languish on the best-seller lists? This would be bad?
if you look, you'll see i added "if you make them at all".
the bestseller lists don't mean big numbers at this time.
(because e-books are still a small piece of the total pie.)
so yes, you can "languish" at the bottom of those lists...
so wouldn't you rather be at the _top_ of them instead?
because they are important, because being on them is
a route to greater visibility to more people. that's why
you go for _volume_ in these early days, not _margin_.
a $9 price-tag means that you won't get _either_ of 'em.
> The point here is that things being what they are, you
> can give the reader a bargain without screwing yourself.
there isn't a kindle buyer out there who considers $9
to be "a bargain". there's way too many lower prices...
> ebooks are 8% of the total book sales in the US
so do you want to get in while it's still easy to get in?
or wait until everybody else has already seen the light,
and is stampeding en masse and trampling each other?
you need to go read konrath to learn what you don't know:
> http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/
here's a good place to start:
> http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2010/09/ebook-pricing.html
joe is raking in money hand-over-fist selling e-books...
now i've wasted enough of my time here telling you this.
so if you haven't learned it by now, then i can't help you...
-bowerbird
Yeah, I think the ideal situation is to window the ebooks like they do paperbacks and let the hardcover sell for a while, but when publishers tried that the Kindle buyers got their panties in a knot ('we have a RIGHT to read books NOW in our chosen format') which I don't understand, but they certainly have something they want and they were willing to spam Amazon with bad reviews to try and get it. So now the publishers are releasing the ebooks at the same time as the hardbacks but at hardback prices, with the idea that they will bring them down over time as the books have had a chance to sell through. The activist readers are angry about this as well.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, at some point the publishers are just going to have to do what needs to be done and weather the storm. As I said, the music industry tried value pricing and impulse buy stuff and it only accelerated their problems. The big argument that is always presented is that unsatisfied people will just download free copies somewhere if they don't like the price, but my feeling is that you really can't compete with 'free' based on price. If people are willing to take the dishonorable option for something as cheap and abundant as music and literature, then any price will be too much. The ethos of the software industry just doesn't translate - where software can cost thousands and a student who just wants to learn might download something and feel justified. Anything that costs what lunch costs is cheap. But I digress...
There is some truth to the fact that there seem to be a few people who can stimulate their sales by doing super-value pricing. But whether this will be a thing that people can do in the future is up in the air I think, the e-readers are new things and people are getting them for the first time, getting on Amazon and seeing what they can get for free or cheap. There's no guarantee that after everyone has one of these things that people will keep buying the same way, buying patterns in a mature market are usually different.
That being said JA Konrath makes his case for value just like Cory Docorow makes his case for giving away free copies and it's worth going over there and reading about it. The thing about some of the writers doing these experiments is that there is an ideological undercurrent to what they are doing and I think a lot of sales are made becuase of that. Sort of like a motivational speaker. There are certainly a lot of 'true believers' around as I think might be exhibited in these comments. So, if you take the ideological motivation out of the equation, who knows what you have. Certainly not a focus on great stories.
I was reading that and I wanted to clarify that I didn't mean to suggest that those guys aren't good writers. What I was saying was that people aren't necessarily buying becuase of the quality of the books, but because of an ideological motivation or a loyalty to the writer. Which bothers me.
ReplyDeleteI think you're right on jbd. And I have looked at Konrath's website, and he's doing things I want no part of, nor did I with paper books.
ReplyDelete1)Aspiring to guruhood.
2)The actual "literature" is largely mediocre series stuff.
3)ebooks are 8% of the total book market and he's marketing to ann even smaller portion of that, a narrow "fan base." As the traditional sf lines are doing more and more now.
What's missing from the current self-publishing ebook thing is editorial judgement to inspire trust in potential buyers. No one knows what they're buying when they buy a book. Reviews are few. Reliable reviewers even fewer.
Sooner or later the retailers like Amazon are somehow going to have to replace publishers' editors as gatekeepers, maybe by paying advances, however small, on books their editors deem worthy, segregating them in a section where the readers know this is happening.
People like bowerbird certainly know more about the technical end than people like me, but don't understand either the book business, or the literary aspect. For instance, if you did charge $2.99 for everything, you couldn't distinguish among your backlist or your frontlist, between novellas and true novels, between novels and story collections, or for that matter books of criticism, just as you can't sell mangos or mangustans or all cuts of meat at the same price per pound.
norman said:
ReplyDelete> People like bowerbird certainly know more about the technical end
> than people like me, but don't understand either the book business,
> or the literary aspect
i will try my very hardest, norman, not to be offended by your insult.
but what you have said here is quite ridiculous. in no particular order,
konrath isn't trying to be a "guru", and he has taken a _lot_ of flack,
just for reporting the facts that he thinks other writers should know...
as to the quality of his writing, i don't know, i haven't read any of it;
but he seems to have gathered readership, which is the _point_ now.
as for "literature", well... you can keep your high opinion of yourself,
and i certainly have a lot of friends who think their shit doesn't smell,
but the fact is that the customer doesn't necessarily give a rat's ass...
as far as "editorial judgement" that can "inspire trust" is concerned,
they don't care about that either. and the fact of the matter is that
e-book buyers know a _lot_ about the books that they are buying,
because the smart authors are giving very generous sample material,
sometimes as much as half of the book. and the smart customers are
reading that sample before buying, so they know what they're getting.
if you knew anything about e-books, you'd know about that sampling.
e-book people are among the most informed customers in the market,
precisely because they no longer must heed gatekeepers or reviewers.
you say you know "the book business", but what you know is outdated.
the system used to be based on scarcity, where shelfspace was limited.
that's the exact opposite of the new system, where books are plentiful
and never go "out of print" or get removed from the big marketplace...
as for "pricing the different cuts of meat differently", good luck on that.
you'll learn. or you won't. it makes absolutely no difference to me...
-bowerbird
Let me add though, that a big thing of selling books is PR. You should try sending this to e-book sites.
ReplyDeleteThe news story, I mean.
ReplyDeleteActually, I've sent the "news story," which is really or also a press release to something over a hundred outlets, on line and paper.
ReplyDeleteAnd the very blogpost being commented on here has been set to a smaller and differently selected list.
As for the bowerbird screed above, it's rather ignorant. Actually I have allowed free sampling of my ebooks. That's not the marketing problem. The problem is that when you have an enormous number of ebooks in existence, when anyone can self-publish, how can a writer reach potential readers who may have never heard of him?
The stuff I've been doing pr-wise can help, but what bowerbird seems to think is that playing to some fan base, self-created or not, is the answer. But it's not, it's restrictive, as the conventional genre publishers are now learning the hard way.
That's why readers need reviews from reviewers they trust, or anyway whose tastes they know, as much or more than the writer.
I know this first hand, having written a regular review column for decades. Every few years I get tired of doing it and start talking about giving it up, and there are people who just about shriek YOU CAN'T DO THAT! PLEASE!
Same thing in spades with editorial filtering. I worked in the fee for reading business of a major literary agency, anyone could submit anything to scrutiny at a price, and we would really try to sell anything that had a chance. 98% of what was submitted didn't. Ebook self-publishing creates the same sort of situation, only not for an agent, but the readers. If anyone can epublish anything and get it out there on major retail outlets, 98% of that will be amateurish crap too.
Although people like bowerbird, and indeed readers in general, don't know it or understand why, they need editors in the equation as much as writers do. Maybe more so.
norman, you're making it very difficult for me to ignore your insults.
ReplyDeleteyou call me "ignorant", but then go on to show that you know very little.
let's review...
> The problem is that when you have an enormous number of ebooks
> in existence, when anyone can self-publish, how can a writer
> reach potential readers who may have never heard of him?
yes, that is a problem. and there is a solution. i've written about it
in numerous places, but here's the location of the latest write-up:
> http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2010/10/live-undead-marketing-draculas.html?showComment=1287696486358#c7989785895861627548
the solution is called "collaborative filtering"...
but that's a solution that isn't in place yet, not in its best form, and
it might be a while before it is put into place and achieving results...
in the meantime, an author trying to get attention has a difficult task.
any writer who was already published by the corporate houses can
_try_ to exploit their reputation. some will have success, some won't.
new writers, however, will have to scratch, and start from scratch, and
they have found that the best way to get any sales at all is a low price.
so new writers are offering low prices. very low prices. the thing is,
there are lots of new writers. lots and lots of new writers. _millions_.
and we've only begun to see the stampede. it will grow _much_ larger.
that means low prices are with us to stay. they're never gonna go away.
that's the reality. if you refuse to accept it, you refuse to accept reality.
now, if all of these new writers were putting out crap, the answer would
be simple. just wait for the readers to learn that low prices equal crap,
and they will eventually learn to migrate to your higher-priced product.
the problem for you is that _many_ of these millions and millions of
new writers are gonna be good. some will even be great, or brilliant.
so the readers will never migrate to the higher-priced product. never.
which means that if you want to get in on the ground floor of all this,
you'd better get in now, and you'd better get in with low-priced product.
that will enable you to build your fan-base.
because -- contrary to what you say -- norman, that's the way to go.
the _only_ way to go. there _is_ no "mass audience" anymore. none.
believe me, if simon&schuster can't find a mass audience for literature,
you as an independent author can't do it. and simon&schuster cannot,
or they wouldn't be offering contracts to celebrities like billy idol and
lisa rinna and snookie, a member of th
(continued...)
ReplyDeletelisa rinna and snookie, a member of the "cast" from "jersey shore"...
> Although people like bowerbird, and indeed readers in general,
> don't know it or understand why, they need editors in the equation
> as much as writers do. Maybe more so.
oh please, norman. you don't know jack shit about what i know.
it would be real nice if someone would filter out all the "bad" books,
which is what the publishing houses (used to claim they) were doing.
but think about this, norman. you shopped your newest book around
to all of the publishers, and they all passed on it. according to them,
it's a bad book. they might have fed you a line about how "it's great,
but we just don't think we can sell it". but you know that's a line, right?
that's what they say to all authors. if they thought it was a good book,
they would've picked it up. but they didn't pick it up. it's a bad book.
but you sit there saying, "heck, i might as well put it up as an e-book."
because -- as you put it -- "what have i got to lose?" it costs nothing
to put it out, and if people buy it, that will put money in your pocket...
so you've put it out. even though "it's a bad book", per the gatekeepers.
this is exactly the thought process that every author is going to follow.
some will just go directly to e-publishing, without even bothering to
see whether the corporate publishing companies will accept the book.
so you are a very real part of the "problem" you profess to abhor...
so, norman, how many copies of your books have you sold so far?
-bowerbird
What's going on with 'Little Heroes' and 'Child of Fortune'? I always liked those.
ReplyDeleteThe price I'll pay for an ebook is the same price I paid for a paperback in 1970 (adjusted for inflation.)
ReplyDeleteThat's going to run me around $3.50 per ebook in today's dollars.
Back in the day, I'd read 2-3 books per week, almost $600 yearly.
That's a lot of money to be dropped into the publishing biz year after year.
$600 bucks is a heck of a lot better than zero.
I think this is probably my last answer to a bowerbird rant, at least if it continues as it has.
ReplyDeleteThe sad fact is that there are not millions of talented writers out there, though there may be millions who think they are, which is what fee-for-reading agents and vanity presses prey upon. I have seen the numbers over time, and maybe one or two people who try to become published writers, let alone making a living at it, out of a hundred even succeed in getting one short story published. This is a fact, not conjecture.
The writers' workshops that succeed are those where would-be students have to submit work to some kind of editorial board to be admitted,the others fail.
As for the rejections of MEXICA, as well as many other novels by diverse hands, right or wrong, they are more often than not marketing decisions. If MEXICA was a "bad book," it would not have been a favorably reviewed best seller in Mexico, it would have been trashed as an insult.
CAT'S CRADLE was the novel that first made Vonnegut's reputation. It was rejected about 20 times before it was published. I worked at the agency that handled DUNE. We ended up with a pathetic salvage sale to a small press for an advance of less that $1000. And everyone knows what happened later.
As for wanting to pay 1970s prices for books in 2010, you might as well try to find a nickel cigar. There may actually be such a thing somewhere, but if there is, it would be an unsmokable rope.
rant? ok. check back in 5 years. you'll see i was right on every count.
ReplyDeleteevery single one.
or, you know, you can just do the actual pricing experiment right now.
cut all your prices in half and your sales will go up three times as high...
cut 'em to a third of their current rate, and sales will be 6 times greater.
and you'll end up making more money, both short-term and long-range.
and you won't have to wait 5 years to see that i was completely correct.
as for any book being "a bad book", i am not the one to judge, at least
not for anyone but myself. but i do agree the gatekeepers have indeed
"screened out" a lot of books that later proved their worth to the world.
which is why i'm glad they no longer have that control. the readers will
find a way to separate wheat from chaff. it was always up to us anyway.
in the meantime, i'm sure that observers can see the humorous irony here.
norman wants all the other writers to accept the judgment of gatekeepers,
while he himself neglects it with impunity when it comes to his own book.
thankfully, i'm certain other authors will act with the very same "impunity".
also, i never, ever said there are millions of talented writers out there.
(although the number of successful blogs might support that figure.)
even if there are only tens of thousands, that's more than enough who will
create low-priced books as solid competition to norman's overpriced books.
go look at your amazon sales ranks to see where you fit in, norman...
***
like i said, i wouldn't even have entered into this conversation ordinarily.
i've done this little dialog dance enough times to know it is a dead end...
people will continue to believe what they want, no matter what the logic.
and even if you tell them they can do the test themselves, they won't do it.
so i learned a long time ago to avoid these time-sink "debates"...
but i donated, oh, about 60 hours of my time helping norman out here,
doing editorial clean-up on one of his books and steering him through
the technological maze, so i really wanted him to be successful, so i took
the time to explain to him the things that he needed to know to do that...
it's not my fault he won't listen.
but gee, i'll tell you, it's kind of weird that -- after having donated all that
editorial expertise to him -- he says that i don't appreciate the importance
of an editor. makes me think those hundreds and hundreds of errors that
i fixed in his book are an improvement that he simply fails to recognize...
-bowerbird
Technical expertise was appreciated, what bowerbird calls editing is copyediting, not created literary editing for enhancing literary quality, nor critical editing for judging literary worth, not commercial editing for making marketing decisions.
ReplyDeleteAll of which can be wrong, all of which are "analog" not "digital." Having been a published writer for 40 decades--and the last traditionally published book in English being HE WALKED AMONG US last April, havinbg been president of two writers' organizations, a literary agent, written two published books on the interface between the biz and literature, being told by someone who hasn't that they understand more about those things than I do is beyond insulting because it is just plain silly.
And, as someone else said here, largely ideologicaly based. Anyone is entitled to think that way, but that's the difference between fantasy and science, between wishing something would be so and the cold equations.
And finally, and this really is the end, when I explained to Jerry Pournelle what I was doing, he starting doing the same thing the very same day And if one doesn't know who Jerry is in relation to these matters, one really doesn't know very much about them at all.
i know the difference between copyediting and developmental editing.
ReplyDeletei also know that "literary quality" and "literary worth" and "marketing"
are subjective judgements that are relics of the old system of scarcity.
and i know that -- when it serves his own specific purposes -- norman
will jettison those concepts and upload his own non-gatekeepered book
just as fast as the next author... and more power to this new freedom!
i also know when someone gets carried away with themselves, and with
their opinion of themselves. of course, i don't know anyone who's been
"a published writer for 40 decades", as norman reports to us up above.
that would put the start of his writing career back some 400 years ago.
even if that were true, it wouldn't help him to adapt to the 21st century.
and i never said i "understand more" about the old system than norman.
but the whole world is turned upside down when the system of scarcity
transitions to the unlimited shelfspace of cyberspace... all the old rules
get thrown out, and you have to learn to play the game in the new way.
like where a $2.99 price-point nets you _more_ money than a $9 one...
norman mentions the difference between "fantasy" and "cold equations".
but i have been the one saying "people have done these experiments and
their findings have consistently been that low prices mean higher profit."
i have been the one saying "try the experiments yourself and you'll see."
it's norman who wants to live in a fantasy world, not do cold equations.
norman never addresses my logic. he just turns everything into a matter
of his resume, and then throws in some ad hominem for good measure.
throw all the mud at me you want, but it ain't gonna increase your sales.
as for jerry pournelle, it's about time he caught up, and started to do
some electronic-publishing "real soon now".
-bowerbird
Enough. This is turning into a repetative useless flameware. And when someone reads that Jerry Pournelle has already gotten into epublishing, as then says he should start to do it "real soon," there is nothing more to be said.
ReplyDeleteExcept that the poin is not to play some fantasy game that doesn't exist, that would pauperize creative writers if it ever did, but to try to mold a new business model that keeps indie bookstores from being destroyed, keeps coventional book publishers from committed seppuku with greed, and brings down the price of relatively new books to that of mass market paperbacks and gets them in their hands within six months, while not only allowing writers to make a living but do it with so-called midlist books.
In the end, bowerbird, it's not just all about money either, it's about writing the kind of fiction want to write for readers who want to read it, in other words fiction you would want to read yourself, not churning out cynical yard goods or having to aim for best-sellers you wouldn't want to read yourself.
One way or another, indeed many ways, I've been doing this for 45 years or so through good times and bad and haven't had a 9-5er since 1966.
Nuff said. More than enough. Fini.
"And if you check on what is actually being charged for ebooks, $9 is cheap for a novel like MEXICA. $2.95 is for previously unpublished amateurs. If writers are going to survive economically, we can't go bargain basement, the point is to undercut the current business model. Charging more or less the price of a mass market paperback for major novel ebooks is quite sufficient to do this. "
ReplyDeleteFor 13 dollars (four extra dollars), I could buy Mexica in print, shipping included.
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9780349119045/Mexica
On the other hand, for 6 dollars, I could buy the newest Nebula and Hugo award winner, without DRM, in various different formats:
http://www.webscription.net/p-1121-the-windup-girl.aspx
9 dollars is a good price for a paperback. For a DRMed kindle version, it is too much for me.
You can always buy used books or remainders cheap if they are available, but MEXICA is not in print. On the other hand, all my other titles on Kindle are cheaper, $8-3. All depends on the title and its availablity.
ReplyDeletegood luck, norman.
ReplyDelete-bowerbird
Just looked at the WINDUP GIRL url above. Sells for $6 well after the hardcover has been out there. Not that different from what I'm doing with non-ebook originals, $3-8, depending on age, otherwise unavailability, personal demands by would-be readers, etc.
ReplyDeleteDRM I admit is a problem and a double-edged sword. Without it, the ebook can go viral and kill sales. But I do agree that the buyer of an ebook should be able to read it on multiple devices. This may turn out to be a solvable technical problem. You buy the ebook with some kind of key that unlocks a limited number of copies, and/or limits them to one per device.
I'm beginning to think I should write a proposal for a fair and just and economically viable business model that works for readers, writers, and publishers. Not entirely impossible...indeed, sooner or later it will have to evolve out of the current chaos, but could be a long messy process.
"Sells for $6 well after the hardcover has been out there."
ReplyDeleteLast September (when the novel was published in HC) it was the same $6. That was the reason I bought it immediately. With HC prices and international shipping, I was going to wait for the paperback.
See the new Stackpole from the same publisher: the cheap ebook came out the same time as the (paperback) print edition:
http://www.webscription.net/p-1308-at-the-queens-command.aspx
I don't know how well it works for the writer, all I could see, as a reader, is that there is a new book from a great writer, and I can buy it instantly for six bucks. Or for nine bucks. At that time it is evident which one I'll choose.
Offtopic: "This may turn out to be a solvable technical problem. "
It is already a "solved" technical problem - all the important ebook DRMs are already cracked.
The following years will be really interesting for writers, publishers and readers.
I do hope there will be a method where authors could prosper, and readers like me could buy excellent stories for a few dollars.
The different standards for different devices are a technical as well a legal problem, and for the reader who wants to be honest, it can be a real pain. But we've seen all this before with competing file formats and technical standards in the computing industry, and basically over time we all collectively arrive at a decision - at some point companies will start to make deals with each other, usually when either someone gets the defiitive uppoer hand or the major players call it a draw and decide to compete in other ways.
ReplyDeleteBack to pricing, if six were nine, whatever... basically as a reader it makes little difference to me when it's all cheaper than a pizza and lasts much longer, but it makes a world of difference to the balance sheets of writers everywhere. People are free to buy the value books if they want, there always have been and always will be value priced books.
Myself, my Kindle is stocked mostly with public domain works I formatted myself... free except for the value of my time. No use buying Twain and Dickens when I can spend my money buying books by living writers who most likely need the nickels.
glad to see that you're learning all this new technology, esp with regard to ebooks!
ReplyDelete-- I'll have to get a ocpy of Mexica, which sounds like a very good book, even though I am not by any means Mexican -- that bit of history affects all Americans
~~ Tessa
~~~
I'm so glad Tessa Dick sent me over here, because I've been a fan of yours for ages. I'll try to lurk without drooling like a groupie.
ReplyDeleteNorman:
ReplyDeleteWhat potential does an e-book have to end up as a basis for television or film development? That is, what is the potential for selling e-books "to the movies?" Will there be agents who specialize in promoting e-books to film and TV?
Thanks, CK
Who knows? But after all, movies these days are based on long-dead tv shows, comics, paintings, video games, whatever. So ebooks should end up becoming movies too.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you on quality. There's going to be a lot of chaff out there. Savvy consumers will note the lack of a publisher as the warning sign to get out their magnifying glass. A poorly-written description is flag number two. A poorly-written excerpt (or the complete lack of an excerpt) should mean No Sale.
ReplyDeleteBut! If the subject matter is appealing, the blurb is interesting, and the excerpt is well-written, the only obstacle is price.
An established name (like yours) helps a great deal.
I really look forward to hearing more about your results, Norman.
Good luck with it!
--Eric